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2022-09-15 BGBU APAC TF Meeting
6.00 UTC = 23:00 PT = 8:00 CET = 11:30 IST = 16:00 Melbourne = 13:00 Thailand Zoom Meeting Link https://zoom.us/j/95121109567?pwd=UFBrWU5PcC9RZS9UaFg1UG81WGZZdz09 Meeting ID: 951 2110 9567 Passcode: 082179
MEETING RECORDING
Notes from the APAC Meeting are recorded in the Table below in green text
Attendees: Oskar van Deventer sankarshan Nicky Hickman
2022-09-12 SSI HARMS BGBU TF USA/EU TF Meeting
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| Time | Item | Lead | Notes |
| 5 min | Welcome & antitrust notice Agenda review | Nicky | Antitrust Policy Notice: Attendees are reminded to adhere to the meeting agenda and not participate in activities prohibited under antitrust and competition laws. Only members of ToIP who have signed the necessary agreements are permitted to participate in this activity beyond an observer role. |
| 10mins | New intro's & updates | Phil Wolff FTC public hearing on online harms (link) - 5 hours long so anyone who listens and can summarise - please share. sankarshan will take a look | |
| 40mins | Reviewing sections of paper | Nicky | Great discussion and feedback on ROUGH draft of paper overall - CONCERNS and arising discussion points
@philwolff commented that remove SSI & Harms in same sentence. As scope expands - expect harms to arise - thinking about 'the precautionary principle' earlier is better.
Darrell O'Donnell - main input interesting - stories are useful, but A-bomb might be distracting - what do we replace it with? Phil Wolff commented that not sure why we would write a white paper format as a ToIP deliverble, storytelling is not Oskar van Deventer - not A-bomb, better use cars and safety belts. SSI is already safer than DigID (e.g. mitigations) . See comments in Discussion doc Phil Wolff commented that not sure why we would write a white paper format as a ToIP deliverble, storytelling is not so much what ToIP has been done, especially w/formal analysis. Part of scholarship is to remove personal opinions - have intellectual riguour & discipline, not sure what role this has in ToIP. Is there more value in scholarly approach vs blog posts that are snackable and might together build momentum. Christine Martin not sure about value of white paper vs blog posts e.g. Phil Wolff if I am a product manager considering my process for product design & launch - then a white paper might not be the first tool I would go for. Want a step-by-step toolkit for mitigating harms, and considering risks to human harms in our process, then does this have a completeness or 'doneness' then 'no'. Actions you can take on Monday - what are they?! - needs to be a concrete deliverable for the team monday to include in process of product development How do we identify most impactful harms and then keep working through? What is the systematic way that you are paying attention to harm? How do you know you have those systems in place? How does c-suite know it's being taken care of? How do you as a group / ecosystem look at these different types of harm? Embedding in standard risk management / security awareness processes Needs to start somewhere - acknowledging that harms exist is good but need tools for rigour. start by acknowledging harm sankarshan need to before white paper - perhaps do a design workshop w/ a persona, does the ToIP meet requirements to prevent harms? Does design-thinking include right questions to address harms. Make other groups accountable for actions to emerge from activities? e.g. influencing standards. How can we exert influence and then provide oversight? This group could then provide evaluation of output of other tasks. Otherwise there will be an air gap between a whitepaper and action? Also will help with collaboration. sankarshan close doc and then break out and share with group. Initiate a process, culture and capability w/in ToIP and wider community to begin addressing systematically over time. Transfer ownership back to the community and x-pollinate w/other groups. Applies to everyone - what's the litmus test. Nicky Hickman Use guardianship model - white paper followed by more practical technical requirements/ implementation guide. Darrell O'Donnell and Christine Martin do both . sankarshan has been looking at document and review comments also reviewed HXWG expert series - suggests continuously raising. Outstanding:
Key Questions: John Phillips created a web form for this - looking forward to finding out the responses on Thursday during APAC Call. Is this Fit for Purpose??? Does it say what you want it to say? Key discussion points are in this document: |
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| Time | Item | Lead | Notes | ||||
| 5 min |
| Nicky |
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| 10mins | Intro's & Updates | Nicky | Eric Welton- discussions with Myanmar Responsible Business Coalition - tricky situation with hostile relationships in government - establishing a biometric identity - difficult choice as someone is going to do it. Can we do it in a more responsible, less harmful way. May be useful to have a session on this in this group. Difficult ethical questions for the team. Interesting presentation on how digital ID can be abused. sankarshan- biometric topic seems to be settling down from aid organisations - have to use biometrics, main focus is now on mitigating harms. Myanmar, Afghanistan and other examples. Uganda for example, optimistic programme, under-enrollment. (the harms of untrustworthy systems) - now starting w/genetic profiling! "The genie is out of the bottle" Jo Spencer Activity on NSW gov initiative - driving license initiative hacked, DNA & biometrics further reinforce the argument.
sankarshanMinimisation is not suitable for some interactions, e.g. Medical Records - much more important for secure and trustworthy data payload / exchange. Also Financial Transactions not very well suited to VC's. Jo Spencer use of verifiable presentations which present derived data. sankarshan taxonomy & semantics - quality & classification of data also needed VC's are not the solution for many forms of data. Biggest harm is derived data sets from small data sets. Eric Welton - Use cases - all non-cash transactions will be exposed to government, e.g. national security / tax collection is given as purpose coming in ??. Remember problems of correlation highlighted by Daniel Hardman Also use case of VCs to convey health information - presentation that key emergency information for medical purposes (e.g. in accident) - could use biometrics to unlock the data for emergency responders. VC is a PDF - convenience / emergency service. Similar to ICE contact, could have ICE Credential. Could be linked to IATA - Good Health Pass sankarshan Must be freeform data. Accept that this is a new attack surface. John Phillips Humanitech conference - could be some good material & input to this discussion. Great discussion and material. I'm now seeing an obvious connection between this work, and the work of the Humanitech organisation here in Australia (founded by the Australian Red Cross) who have been thinking about how they might "ensure frontier technologies benefit people and society". I was at, and spoke briefly, at their 2022 conference (https://humanitechsummit.org/2022/) - they've been considering the potential harms of the mis-application of frontier technology for some time. | ||||
| 5mins | Actions | Nicky |
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| 15mins | AGENCY | Nicky | Review of notes and insights from the AGENCY talk at HXWG last week. Here is the wiki page On fake news (and news) there's a good 20 mins conversation from Davos hosted by Polkadot -
Rumsfeld Structure to scope "Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones.[1]" (Source: Wiki) Also for discussion see this Miro Board
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| 20mins | Storyboard Next Steps | Phil | NEW (Google Slides): https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Y404nJpSOkJFK5pc2aYUmJtrXtCkwcx-eIMC9ZMC0DU/edit?usp=sharing Phil has transferred to a G-DOC https://docs.google.com/document/d/151cqN0HY-ECmGwcS_SSBCeCHtszuwGyQebLRJq8sODA/edit?usp=sharing which contains the same material but in a doc format | ||||
| 5mins | AOB | Nicky |
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