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Notes from the APAC Meeting are recorded in the Table below in green text
Attendees: Jill Bamforth, Nicky Hickman
2022-11-21 SSI HARMS BGBU TF USA/EU TF Meeting
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Attendees: Phil Wolff Christine Martin Neil Thomson Nicky Hickman
Agenda:
Time | Item | Lead | Notes |
5 min | Welcome & antitrust notice Agenda review | Nicky | Antitrust Policy Notice: Attendees are reminded to adhere to the meeting agenda and not participate in activities prohibited under antitrust and competition laws. Only members of ToIP who have signed the necessary agreements are permitted to participate in this activity beyond an observer role. |
10min | New intro's & Updates | Update from IIW. Here are the notes that Neil Thomson took in the session that he and Darrell O'Donnell ran at recent IIW 35 Darrell brought up a series of topcis, new to topic, about 20 people including some heavy hitters, many will be looing at the notes and as an 'unoffical steal'! No big gaps, turning minds to blocking or mitigating. How do we make it easy for people to make the right choices.? What kind of message do we want to send to technical thinking. Receptive overall to incorporating thinking but not much certainty as to what that looks like at that point. Need to make it clear to policy makers, but you cannot hope that the tech will solve, the tech alone cannot overcome the harms. Phil Wolff concerned that there is a gap between very technical principled idea of how this should work and everything that happens downstream. Separated by time, jurisidiction, etc, very difficult to imagine that this has any kind of negative externality. Not obvious, and if they do see it why is it my concern vs others' concern Neil Thomson commented that there is definitely a tension to make it usable but at what point do you want to protect the tech that is useful without constraining the tech itself. Phil Wolff suggested a list of harms and countermeasures that is very specific as an appendix. Christine Martin suggested a good idea. Neil Thomson suggested a companion document with existing mitigations and other suggestions. Very precise definition of harms. Phil Wolff commented that first had to get community buy in to the fact of negative externalities, then we are inviting others to participate in harms work, quantifying risk and growing knowledge. Processes fro quantifying risk and being accountable need to include human harms. Not walk through the architecture, but an agreement that this is a necessary process. Concensus that there is a problem is the call to action from this paper. Neil Thomson consensus from Canada is also starting on things like filtering for those under 18 years. follow up at next IIW requested. | |
10mins | mechanics on paper | Nicky | Terms Wiki is done - https://github.com/trustoverip/hxwg/wiki, forced to be much more specific about the terms that we use, and should have been done before the public version. IE the glossary in the pdf version is not correct. Paper is in PDF version md version is under development. Definitely talk to Andor/Anti. Can help get in github properly md version now complete in folder ready for github, Elisa Trevino is going to help Nicky with github. |
30mins | blog post & other follow ups | Nicky | Blog for development is here: Phil also has written Negative Externalities and will add to blog - this is an excellent approach No.1 = Houston we have a problem! Phil Wolff has already added some things, and Pyrou Chung has offered to contribute. Jill suggested a set of guiding principles to support designers and implementers because environment is changing so quickly, we can easily test these principles. Can we find principles also with diverse examples of their application. EG Bills of Rights, Hippocratic Oath applies almost everywhere and accepted. Common values = challenge - e.g. strict Muslim vs freedom from persecution for sexuality. Comes back to ethics - gets embedded in politics and legal views. EG Jill lived in many countries, how do you form that common bond = Family. Depends on environment, context. Recognition that application of principles in the context in which it sits. EG China, see chinese first then British or Australian second, speaks to a fundamental view of how they view their identity. So e.g. in Australia, must give up your Chinese PP to become an Australian national. Chinese Gov imposes rules not Australian. Analogous with tudor period Catholic vs Protestant/Anglican. Can't have 1st master as Pope, consider purgatory, links are similar today - e.g. soul=land for indigenous people, very different approach to the land in Western mindset. APO suggested by Jill https://apo.org.au/ once paper is ready could be useful to add to this resource. If in different state, what needs to happen? Would open up to many others. Read by gov and industry. Could be a way to promote to a broader audience. Get researchers together to bring our next steps for research - going deeper on wicked problems. Theoretical and practical contribution is needed. Where does it fit into theoretical vs practical thinking. Identify the nutty issues, then find PhD students to explore in depth. Also on the ground studies. Maybe working to build a student/researcher community to bring others together. Jill's extensive and thorough commentary is here. can serve as a basis for next steps on research side. |
5mins | Close & Actions | Nicky | Nicky Hickman to outline checklist document Nicky wanted to publicly acknowledge Phil Wolff 's enormous contribution to this paper, would not have happened without him. Target Monday for publication date to accommodate Thanksgiving. Nicky to coordinate with Judith to arrange open event - for inclusion in blog post for call to action. Join us - specific topic to review harms and strategies together and figure out next steps as an organisation/ community. |
2022-11-10 BGBU APAC TF Meeting
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Time | Item | Lead | Notes |
5 min | Welcome & antitrust notice Agenda review | Nicky | Antitrust Policy Notice: Attendees are reminded to adhere to the meeting agenda and not participate in activities prohibited under antitrust and competition laws. Only members of ToIP who have signed the necessary agreements are permitted to participate in this activity beyond an observer role. |
10mins | New intro's & updates | Turing Institute Trustworthy Identities Conference - Decentralization & Harms a constant strand, | |
25 mins | New Arc | Nicky | Considering feedback and comments on the current drat of the white paper - suggested new arc/perspective as an alternative to 'ssi harms'
Actually the far side of the moon is not dark at all, but it is different from the near side. See The far side of the Moon, photographed by Apollo 16 in 1972. It is much more crater-ridden than the near side of the Moon. Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_side_of_the_Moon. Not all of the far side of the moon is invisible from earth due to a phenomenon known as libration "In lunar astronomy, libration is the wagging or wavering of the Moon perceived by Earth-bound observers and caused by changes in their perspective. It permits an observer to see slightly different hemispheres of the surface at different times. It is similar in both cause and effect to the changes in the Moon's apparent size due to changes in distance. " This paper is like the Apollo 8 astronauts who were the first humans to see the far side in person when they orbited the Moon in 1968. We are just mapping that side of digital identity which we all know is there and contributing to opening up debate and developing robust legal, technical, human experience and governance mechanisms for addressing this problem. e.g. https://privacyinternational.org/advocacy/4945/letter-global-csos-world-bank "We, the undersigned civil society organizations and individuals, urge the World Bank and other international organizations to take immediate steps to cease activities that promote harmful models of digital identification systems (digital ID). "
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15mins | Potential Titles | Nicky | From discussion in HXWG
From story Arc Mapping the Far Side of the Moon: A new framework for understanding and mitigating the human harms of digital identity systems; ‘Overcoming the challenges of human harms from in digital identity ecosystems’ The Apollo 16 Paper: Considering human harms in digital trust ecosystem design / digital identity systems Vision based: Do no harm: creating digital identity systems that serve the public good On track for finishing 2nd draft end next week Darrell O'Donnell and Christine Martin to do Foreward |
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Time | Item | Lead | Notes | ||||
5 min |
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10mins | Intro's & Updates | Nicky | Eric Welton- discussions with Myanmar Responsible Business Coalition - tricky situation with hostile relationships in government - establishing a biometric identity - difficult choice as someone is going to do it. Can we do it in a more responsible, less harmful way. May be useful to have a session on this in this group. Difficult ethical questions for the team. Interesting presentation on how digital ID can be abused. sankarshan- biometric topic seems to be settling down from aid organisations - have to use biometrics, main focus is now on mitigating harms. Myanmar, Afghanistan and other examples. Uganda for example, optimistic programme, under-enrollment. (the harms of untrustworthy systems) - now starting w/genetic profiling! "The genie is out of the bottle" Jo Spencer Activity on NSW gov initiative - driving license initiative hacked, DNA & biometrics further reinforce the argument.
sankarshanMinimisation is not suitable for some interactions, e.g. Medical Records - much more important for secure and trustworthy data payload / exchange. Also Financial Transactions not very well suited to VC's. Jo Spencer use of verifiable presentations which present derived data. sankarshan taxonomy & semantics - quality & classification of data also needed VC's are not the solution for many forms of data. Biggest harm is derived data sets from small data sets. Eric Welton - Use cases - all non-cash transactions will be exposed to government, e.g. national security / tax collection is given as purpose coming in ??. Remember problems of correlation highlighted by Daniel Hardman Also use case of VCs to convey health information - presentation that key emergency information for medical purposes (e.g. in accident) - could use biometrics to unlock the data for emergency responders. VC is a PDF - convenience / emergency service. Similar to ICE contact, could have ICE Credential. Could be linked to IATA - Good Health Pass sankarshan Must be freeform data. Accept that this is a new attack surface. John Phillips Humanitech conference - could be some good material & input to this discussion. Great discussion and material. I'm now seeing an obvious connection between this work, and the work of the Humanitech organisation here in Australia (founded by the Australian Red Cross) who have been thinking about how they might "ensure frontier technologies benefit people and society". I was at, and spoke briefly, at their 2022 conference (https://humanitechsummit.org/2022/) - they've been considering the potential harms of the mis-application of frontier technology for some time. | ||||
5mins | Actions | Nicky |
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15mins | AGENCY | Nicky | Review of notes and insights from the AGENCY talk at HXWG last week. Here is the wiki page On fake news (and news) there's a good 20 mins conversation from Davos hosted by Polkadot -
Rumsfeld Structure to scope "Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones.[1]" (Source: Wiki) Also for discussion see this Miro Board
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20mins | Storyboard Next Steps | Phil | NEW (Google Slides): https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Y404nJpSOkJFK5pc2aYUmJtrXtCkwcx-eIMC9ZMC0DU/edit?usp=sharing Phil has transferred to a G-DOC https://docs.google.com/document/d/151cqN0HY-ECmGwcS_SSBCeCHtszuwGyQebLRJq8sODA/edit?usp=sharing which contains the same material but in a doc format | ||||
5mins | AOB | Nicky |
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