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Notes from the APAC Meeting are recorded in the Table below in green text
Attendees: sankarshan Nicky Hickman Pyrou Chung
2022-11-07 SSI HARMS BGBU TF USA/EU TF Meeting
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| Time | Item | Lead | Notes |
| 5 min | Welcome & antitrust notice Agenda review | Nicky | Antitrust Policy Notice: Attendees are reminded to adhere to the meeting agenda and not participate in activities prohibited under antitrust and competition laws. Only members of ToIP who have signed the necessary agreements are permitted to participate in this activity beyond an observer role. |
| 10min | New intro's & Updates | Darrell O'Donnell will be at IIW, Neil Thomson co-chair of Data Modeling &___ WG authentic data vs authentic identity, follow on from ISWG many others on same track, triangle similar to issuer, holder, verifier, but different. One issuer, thousands of data providers. How are these sources and issuers different? what denotes authenticity, consent etc - how do these fit together e.g. DIF Data Agreements Group, same with Consent, discussions about the process/agreement, but not about the data. | |
| 40min | White Paper Review key questions | Nicky | Many reviewers and excellent comments on the paper leading to improvements on the paper. Many discussions needed going forward, further work. Continuing the discussion: Overcoming Harms_Further Discussion Document, initially including detailed and thought provoking commentary from Jill Bamforth. Progress against ToDo's
"A colleague asked me a question today "do you have a personal data harms stat that you can share that will help me shake up an executive? A stat that is so blatantly damaging that it will compel them to invest in the development of personal information management solutions and lean into being a personal information economy leader." Harms are costs: they cost businesses billions in customer services, abuse management systems, security, fraud management, reputational damage and opportunity cost. At the same time they cost every public purse billions mopping up the after-effects e.g. healthcare, benefits, national cybersecurity, ... As soon as that senior exec realises that the microharms not only impact his bonus, but also his taxes your friend will have his attention! Energy concerns also adding in Environment section. Energy & Resource costs of Tech, how do you reduce those harms. Is there a business case for addressing harms, or is it a moral endevour? Darrell O'Donnell - need concrete examples. Impact on employees of firms. Neil Thomson - many things that may be done are additional benefits of using SSI, security benefit. Future-proofing also a benefit, freebies by adopting SSI.
Key Terms for final version & publication
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| 5mins | AOB & Close | Nicky | Worthwhile effort! We are looking at this and considering in our designs |
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| Time | Item | Lead | Notes |
| 5 min | Welcome & antitrust notice Agenda review | Nicky | Antitrust Policy Notice: Attendees are reminded to adhere to the meeting agenda and not participate in activities prohibited under antitrust and competition laws. Only members of ToIP who have signed the necessary agreements are permitted to participate in this activity beyond an observer role. |
| 10mins | New intro's & updates | Turing Institute Trustworthy Identities Conference - Decentralization & Harms a constant strand, | |
| 25 mins | New Arc | Nicky | Considering feedback and comments on the current drat of the white paper - suggested new arc/perspective as an alternative to 'ssi harms'
Actually the far side of the moon is not dark at all, but it is different from the near side. See The far side of the Moon, photographed by Apollo 16 in 1972. It is much more crater-ridden than the near side of the Moon. Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_side_of_the_Moon. Not all of the far side of the moon is invisible from earth due to a phenomenon known as libration "In lunar astronomy, libration is the wagging or wavering of the Moon perceived by Earth-bound observers and caused by changes in their perspective. It permits an observer to see slightly different hemispheres of the surface at different times. It is similar in both cause and effect to the changes in the Moon's apparent size due to changes in distance. "
This paper is like the Apollo 8 astronauts who were the first humans to see the far side in person when they orbited the Moon in 1968. We are just mapping that side of digital identity which we all know is there and contributing to opening up debate and developing robust legal, technical, human experience and governance mechanisms for addressing this problem. e.g. https://privacyinternational.org/advocacy/4945/letter-global-csos-world-bank "We, the undersigned civil society organizations and individuals, urge the World Bank and other international organizations to take immediate steps to cease activities that promote harmful models of digital identification systems (digital ID). "
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| 15mins | Potential Titles | Nicky | From discussion in HXWG
From story Arc Mapping the Far Side of the Moon: A new framework for understanding and mitigating the human harms of digital identity systems; ‘Overcoming the challenges of human harms from in digital identity ecosystems’ The Apollo 16 Paper: Considering human harms in digital trust ecosystem design / digital identity systems Vision based: Do no harm: creating digital identity systems that serve the public good On track for finishing 2nd draft end next week Darrell O'Donnell and Christine Martin to do Foreward |
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| Time | Item | Lead | Notes | ||||
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| 10mins | Intro's & Updates | Nicky | Eric Welton- discussions with Myanmar Responsible Business Coalition - tricky situation with hostile relationships in government - establishing a biometric identity - difficult choice as someone is going to do it. Can we do it in a more responsible, less harmful way. May be useful to have a session on this in this group. Difficult ethical questions for the team. Interesting presentation on how digital ID can be abused. sankarshan- biometric topic seems to be settling down from aid organisations - have to use biometrics, main focus is now on mitigating harms. Myanmar, Afghanistan and other examples. Uganda for example, optimistic programme, under-enrollment. (the harms of untrustworthy systems) - now starting w/genetic profiling! "The genie is out of the bottle" Jo Spencer Activity on NSW gov initiative - driving license initiative hacked, DNA & biometrics further reinforce the argument.
sankarshanMinimisation is not suitable for some interactions, e.g. Medical Records - much more important for secure and trustworthy data payload / exchange. Also Financial Transactions not very well suited to VC's. Jo Spencer use of verifiable presentations which present derived data. sankarshan taxonomy & semantics - quality & classification of data also needed VC's are not the solution for many forms of data. Biggest harm is derived data sets from small data sets. Eric Welton - Use cases - all non-cash transactions will be exposed to government, e.g. national security / tax collection is given as purpose coming in ??. Remember problems of correlation highlighted by Daniel Hardman Also use case of VCs to convey health information - presentation that key emergency information for medical purposes (e.g. in accident) - could use biometrics to unlock the data for emergency responders. VC is a PDF - convenience / emergency service. Similar to ICE contact, could have ICE Credential. Could be linked to IATA - Good Health Pass sankarshan Must be freeform data. Accept that this is a new attack surface. John Phillips Humanitech conference - could be some good material & input to this discussion. Great discussion and material. I'm now seeing an obvious connection between this work, and the work of the Humanitech organisation here in Australia (founded by the Australian Red Cross) who have been thinking about how they might "ensure frontier technologies benefit people and society". I was at, and spoke briefly, at their 2022 conference (https://humanitechsummit.org/2022/) - they've been considering the potential harms of the mis-application of frontier technology for some time. | ||||
| 5mins | Actions | Nicky |
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| 15mins | AGENCY | Nicky | Review of notes and insights from the AGENCY talk at HXWG last week. Here is the wiki page On fake news (and news) there's a good 20 mins conversation from Davos hosted by Polkadot -
Rumsfeld Structure to scope "Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones.[1]" (Source: Wiki) Also for discussion see this Miro Board
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| 20mins | Storyboard Next Steps | Phil | NEW (Google Slides): https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Y404nJpSOkJFK5pc2aYUmJtrXtCkwcx-eIMC9ZMC0DU/edit?usp=sharing Phil has transferred to a G-DOC https://docs.google.com/document/d/151cqN0HY-ECmGwcS_SSBCeCHtszuwGyQebLRJq8sODA/edit?usp=sharing which contains the same material but in a doc format | ||||
| 5mins | AOB | Nicky |
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