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Table of Contents

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Notes from the APAC Meeting are recorded in the Table below in green text

Attendees: sankarshan Nicky Hickman Thomas Robin, Hannes Hahkio; Pyrou Chung.; Jo Spencer 

Agenda

TimeItemLeadNotes
2 min

Welcome & antitrust notice

Agenda review

Nicky

Antitrust Policy Notice: Attendees are reminded to adhere to the meeting agenda and not participate in activities prohibited under antitrust and competition laws. Only members of ToIP who have signed the necessary agreements are permitted to participate in  this activity beyond an observer role.

13minUpdates & New Intro'sNicky

HXWG Meeting updates

White Paper outline and progress

sankarshan  Sovrin Ecosystem governance Framework

20 minIndigenous voicesPyrouFeedback from grassroots research ref identity, personal data and harms

Hannes Hahkio - based in Finland work for small consulting company called Hi Gear, Public sector companies are a focus of ours especially Citizen ID & SSI.  Act as consultants for gov & public sector.  Promoting SSI.  Aiming to understand landscape and then join some TF's and WGs.

Thomas Robin, works with Sezoo, based in Australia, specialising in digital trust & SSI models.  Where are the weaknesses to ensure we don't repeat the mistakes.

Update from sankarshan “Open Loop is a global program that connects policymakers and technology companies to help develop effective and evidence-based policies around AI and other emerging technologies.”

https://openloop.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/AI_Impact_Assessment_A_Policy_Prototyping_Experiment.pdf

Consider the ID of things (algorithms) and new TF in ToIP related to AI.

HXWG Meeting updates

sankarshan  Sovrin Ecosystem governance Framework https://sovrin.org/, now 2 governance framework with Layer 1 utility GF and L4 ecosystem GF.  The problem of ecosystems, lack of balance between big and small players.  Fairness, transparency and accountability plus collective ownership - require balance of these forces.  Prevents innovation and creates collusion, commercially unbalanced solutions and inappropriate evolution.  Sovrin is a lived reality.  

We would like to request you to go through the SEGF available from https://sovrin.org/library/sovrin-governance-framework/ (see section "Proposed Revisions/new documents") Additionally, there is a document which contains a list of suggested additional reading - we think that this compilation would be helpful in understanding the context

Also see this white paper from EFWG Trinh Nguyen

20 minIndigenous voicesPyrou

Feedback from grassroots research ref identity, personal data and harms

Major regional meeting last week with 10 countries across Asia with reps from 15 indigenous groups, main progress was to look at a framework for 

What is identity to you as an indigenous person

Ability to identify themselves with land & territory which was consistent across all groups, doesn't begin to define how they interact 

Identity linked to environmental ecosystem, e.g. different languages inside forest and outside forest, how they defined their connection to territory that were linked to landscapes that were precious to them many under threat, deep spiritual connection, so when you remove natural resources they loose their community and their ability to communicate.

Difficulty in interacting with society at large mainly because of lack of recognition - main barrier is driven by western centric way identity is laid out.   they are defined by those that colonised them, not applicable in Asia as colonised by other non-western nations, so distinct hard lines that don't necessarily reflect indigenous people and identity.  Their identity doesn't reflect their connection with nation, negotiating access to services e.g. if transboundary territories, e.g. China / India - how do they negotiate across these boundaries.  Even if they are able to self-assert, how is that recognized across those national boundaries.  EG in vietnam it is illegal to identify as indigenous.   Discrimination is then based on the assertion of indigenous - especially if mixed race children of ethnic mother, no option for dual nationality so children are appropriated to national identity and lose their culture and ancestral knowledge.  How do you prevent these harms if you can identify.

EG caste system in India, 6 ethnic groups from India, if indigenous not part of caste system are below / beyond untouchable.  They are not even recognized as a person.

HOW TO!?  Self-determination, no discrimination, being recognized, traverse admin national boundaries and engage w/society at large. 

Cambodian communities most fragmented, colonised by Khemir and gov has systematically tried to expunge indigenous identity & culture, Exceptionally fractured and deteriorated by lose generational knowledge, and loose language and culture.

Jo Spencer - ecosystem must be well defined scope & common objectives - having defined and being able to self-determine, link between national & cultural definition ask IS THIS USEFUL.  With SSI this is possible, but whether it is worth doing is the question.

Pyrou - in Cambodia high % of people have smart phones but not indigenous people, don't even have power & connectivity despite progress on SDGs and resilience in face of covid - tech itself is alien to them.  How do you address this & scale?

Hannes - Differences with meaning and words even if same language - same in Europe, different slang different language.  How do you convey meaning.  All these elements need to be represented to convey meaning, that way everyone can ensure they convey meaning .  Tied deeply to HX, how do you represent yourself and understand eachother, how do you resolve disputes?

Pyrou - we struggled with different languages - much gets lost in translation.  I am hopefully we can decolonise the tech ?  Many elders don't necessarily want tech in their community, so another barrier especially thinking about life and spirit, computers don't have that.


20minMental Model discussionNicky

Review the starting point mental model to support definition of terms and understand relationships between concepts such as agency, power, resilience and vulnerability.  

White Paper outline and progress

5mins AOB & ActionsNicky

2022-06-23 BGBU APAC TF Meeting

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TimeItemLeadNotes
5 min
  • Welcome & antitrust notice

  • Agenda review
Nicky
  • Antitrust Policy Notice: Attendees are reminded to adhere to the meeting agenda and not participate in activities prohibited under antitrust and competition laws. Only members of ToIP who have signed the necessary agreements are permitted to participate in this activity beyond an observer role.

10minsIntro's & UpdatesNicky

Eric Welton- discussions with Myanmar Responsible Business Coalition - tricky situation with hostile relationships in government - establishing a biometric identity - difficult choice as someone is going to do it.  Can we do it in a more responsible, less harmful way.  May be useful to have a session on this in this group.  Difficult ethical questions for the team.  Interesting presentation on how digital ID can be abused.

sankarshan- biometric topic seems to be settling down from aid organisations - have to use biometrics, main focus is now on mitigating harms.  Myanmar, Afghanistan and other examples.  Uganda for example, optimistic programme, under-enrollment.  (the harms of untrustworthy systems) - now starting w/genetic profiling!

"The genie is out of the bottle"

Jo Spencer Activity on NSW gov initiative - driving license initiative hacked, DNA & biometrics further reinforce the argument. 

  • We need to be better, we need to be very aware that the information we're sharing is not as secure as we'd hoped.  Law of Minimal Disclosure for Constrained Use.  Need to be cryptographically secured.  Driving new projects.  Victor Dominello  (NSW gov)  Inclusion focus on services for citizens, also allied with indigenous people programme.  Now an important process.  All exclusion factors considered (digital, literacy, social, political, disability, financial)

sankarshanMinimisation is not suitable for some interactions, e.g. Medical Records - much more important for secure and trustworthy data payload /  exchange.  Also Financial Transactions not very well suited to VC's.

Jo Spencer use of verifiable presentations which present derived data.

sankarshan taxonomy & semantics - quality & classification of data also needed

VC's are not the solution for many forms of data.  

Biggest harm is derived data sets from small data sets.

Eric Welton  - Use cases - all non-cash transactions will be exposed to government, e.g. national security / tax collection is given as purpose coming in ??.  Remember problems of correlation highlighted by Daniel Hardman

Also use case of VCs to convey health information - presentation that key emergency information for medical purposes (e.g. in accident) - could use biometrics to unlock the data for emergency responders.  VC is a PDF - convenience / emergency service.  Similar to ICE contact, could have ICE Credential. Could be linked to IATA - Good Health Pass

sankarshan Must be freeform data.  Accept that this is a new attack surface.  

John Phillips Humanitech conference - could be some good material & input to this discussion.  Great discussion and material. I'm now seeing an obvious connection between this work, and the work of the Humanitech organisation here in Australia (founded by the Australian Red Cross) who have been thinking about how they might "ensure frontier technologies benefit people and society". I was at, and spoke briefly, at their 2022 conference (https://humanitechsummit.org/2022/) - they've been considering the potential harms of the mis-application of frontier technology for some time.


5minsActionsNicky
  •  Nicky to try again to get the Me2B Alliance Harms Dictionary in xls format for analysis
  •  Nicky to see if there is a different cadence or timing for APAC meetings
15minsAGENCY Nicky

Review of notes and insights from the AGENCY talk at HXWG last week.  Here is the wiki page 

On fake news (and news) there's a good 20 mins conversation from Davos hosted by Polkadot -

Widget Connector
urlhttp://youtube.com/watch?v=eCI0GizV6QY

Rumsfeld Structure to scope  "Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones.[1]" (Source: Wiki)

Also for discussion see this Miro Board

  • differentiate between data exchange and identity as legal identification
  • See comments in Miro Board
  • Agree importance of Unknown Unknowns and use of resilience / vulnerability context relationships
20minsStoryboard Next StepsPhil

NEW (Google Slides): https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Y404nJpSOkJFK5pc2aYUmJtrXtCkwcx-eIMC9ZMC0DU/edit?usp=sharing

Phil has transferred to a G-DOC https://docs.google.com/document/d/151cqN0HY-ECmGwcS_SSBCeCHtszuwGyQebLRJq8sODA/edit?usp=sharing which contains the same material but in a doc format


5minsAOB Nicky

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