This TF schedules meetings as needed. Each meeting will be announced on the GSWG mailing list and the #governance-architecture-tf Slack channel.

The meetings (and Zoom links) are available on the ToIP meeting calendar:
LFX Meetings

Zoom Meeting Links / Recordings

Video and Transcript:

Meeting starts 07:00 in

Attendees

@Neil Thomson

@Scott Perry

@Makki Elfatih

@sankarshan

@John Phillips

@Drummond Reed

Agenda Items and Notes (including all relevant links)

Summary of meeting:

Summary of meeting generated by NoteBookLM from the transcript and chat messages.

The prompt used is “Using a professional but friendly style, create a minutes of the meeting based on the selected sources. Summarise the key discussion points made by the speakers and list any decisions and agreed actions. Make any references explicit by citing the time at which they occur.”

Minutes of the Meeting

Date: 23 July 2025 (inferred from transcript GMT20250723-230221_Recording.transcript.txt and GMT20250723-230221_RecordingnewChat.txt)

Attendees: Drummond Reed, Neil Thomson (QueryVision), John Phillips (Sezoo), Scott Perry (Digital Governance Institute), Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay (Dhiway Networks Private Limited), Makki Elfatih (Hkdolts)

Key Discussion Points:

• Personal Updates and Introductions:

  • Drummond Reed shared details of his "amazing," life-changing 8-day trip climbing Kilimanjaro with his two sons [00:02:58 - 00:03:18].

  • John Phillips recounted living in Kenya and Zambia as a child and his father climbing Kilimanjaro in the 1960s, noting changes in glacier coverage since then [00:03:20 - 00:04:01].

• Liability in Digital Trust Systems:

  • John Phillips introduced the core question of where liability lands when things go wrong in trustworthy systems, particularly concerning falsely issued credentials or companies being struck off registries while trade continues [00:07:16 - 00:08:48].

  • He provided examples such as Australian sunscreens falsely claiming SPF 50 due to a dubious lab, and age assurance trials where inappropriate age assessment led to harm, prompting the question: "Who pays?" [00:09:33 - 00:11:00].

  • Neil Thomson suggested that legal precedence likely exists, highlighting the role of the governance body's due diligence, manufacturers' vetting of certification labs, and auditors [00:11:14 - 00:12:07].

  • Drummond Reed clarified that liability can only be assigned to legal "parties" (e.g., the governing body), not to systems or governance frameworks themselves. He emphasised that a crucial part of any ecosystem's governance framework is its liability framework, which must anticipate and define how liability will be handled for its use cases [00:13:20 - 00:14:44].

  • John Phillips acknowledged that liability ultimately "depends on context and participants" and is often tested in a court of law [00:15:00 - 00:15:48].

  • The group agreed that the existence of liability makes a business "real," moving it beyond academic exercises or Proof of Concepts [00:16:30 - 00:16:42].

  • Neil Thomson noted that risk assessment is critical, stating that a lack of due diligence (e.g., on vetting issuers or auditing) leads to issues [00:16:59 - 00:17:10]. John Phillips pointed out that the current risk assessment matrix doesn't explicitly mention "liability" [00:18:22 - 00:18:34].

  • The discussion extended to scenarios where a traveller falsely presents credentials to commit a crime, raising questions about who bears the risk and liability. Drummond Reed pointed out that verifiable credentials allow auditing the trail back to the "weak link" where false credentials originated [00:21:20 - 00:22:51].

  • The complexity of liability when credentials from multiple ecosystems (each with its own governance and liability framework) are involved in an incident was raised. Drummond Reed suggested that conventional law would adjudicate such cases, as it's beyond the scope of the system itself [00:23:44 - 00:24:43].

  • John Phillips referenced US Section 230 as a potential precedent for platforms being treated as "plumbing" without taking liability for content or claims passed through their framework [00:25:28 - 00:26:26]. He articulated that the Global Trust Registry's role is not to dictate how countries register businesses, but to make transparent how they do so, allowing others to decide on trustworthiness [00:26:34 - 00:27:08].

  • Scott Perry reinforced that liability should follow the actions of a party [00:39:50 - 00:39:56]. He expects issuers of verifiable credentials to perform due diligence and recommended that governance frameworks clearly outline liability so participants understand their risks [00:40:25 - 00:42:21]. He clarified that while the risk assessment guide focuses on risks within the governing authority's control, it avoids explicit "liability" discussions because liability differs across jurisdictions. His aim is to "set the framework for liability without being the jurisdiction enforcing it" [00:43:01 - 00:45:18].

• Pricing for Verification and Market Influence:

  • John Phillips discussed how the cost of verifying company registrations can impact market participation. He cited Panama as an example where high registration and verification fees might make Panamanian companies less commercially competitive compared to those from Estonia, where verification is free [00:27:17 - 00:28:10].

  • Drummond Reed anticipated that technology would lower verification costs, making it difficult to justify verification fees, although issuance/registration costs would remain [00:30:12 - 00:31:29].

  • John Phillips highlighted the Australian digital birth certificate model, where issuance has a fee, but subsequent verification is free. State registrars (BdMs) are interested in charging for verification because they incur service provision costs without receiving fees [00:31:40 - 00:34:28].

  • Scott Perry introduced the concept of "value" in pricing, asserting that people pay for what they perceive as valuable, and the market ultimately determines acceptable prices. He concurred that governance should not dictate pricing but ensure transparency of fees and registration meanings, letting market forces decide [00:35:37 - 00:36:04, 00:50:18].

  • John Phillips further suggested that the rigour of a country's registration process could influence the perceived value and trustworthiness of a company registered there (e.g., Switzerland vs. Panama), allowing the market to decide which registrations hold more weight [00:51:21 - 00:52:26].

• Role of the Insurance Industry:

  • John Phillips noted that insurance provides a mechanism to mitigate risk, with premiums reflecting risk assessment [00:19:30].

  • Neil Thomson underscored the cyber insurance industry's influence in driving companies towards decentralised data storage (e.g., using digital wallets for personal information) to reduce risk exposure, thereby avoiding liability for holding sensitive data on servers [00:20:30 - 00:21:12].

  • Scott Perry mentioned the interesting work of actuaries in cyber insurance [00:53:42].

  • Neil Thomson praised the insurance industry for its fact-based, demonstrable approach to assessing risk, regardless of beliefs or opinions, directly correlating costs to impact [00:54:11 - 00:54:46].

  • John Phillips offered the space industry as an extreme example where insurance costs can equal the build cost of a satellite, reflecting the high inherent risks involved [00:55:02 - 00:55:40].

Decisions:

• Suspension of Governance Architecture Task Force (GATF) Meetings: The recurring GATF meetings will be suspended until mid-September, acknowledging that many members in the northern hemisphere take August off [00:57:38, 00:58:36, 00:59:38].

• Ad-Hoc Symposium Planning Meetings: While recurring meetings are suspended, specific ad-hoc meetings will be arranged if needed for symposium content planning [00:58:40, 00:59:38].

Agreed Actions:

• Share Legal Agreement Links: Scott Perry committed to sharing links to available legal agreement templates, specifically mentioning C2PA and Glyph [00:45:31, 00:49:28].

• Analyse Legal Agreement Templates for Liability: The group should explore collecting various legal agreement templates (including the 3 published by ToIP) and potentially using AI assistance to analyse common terms and trigger points related to liability. This would help in setting a framework for liability without being the enforcing jurisdiction [00:46:02 - 00:46:50].

• Explore Cyber Insurance/Legal Expert Involvement: Neil Thomson will reach out to Canadian contacts with digital/legal expertise, specifically from the cyber insurance industry, to gauge their interest in participating in future discussions on liability [00:53:25, 00:55:33].

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Next step: Let's consider how the insights on market-driven pricing and jurisdictional influence on company registrations might inform a strategic recommendation for the Global Trust Registry. Specifically, how can the registry's design maximise transparency regarding these factors, to empower users to make informed, market-based decisions about trustworthiness?

Chat notes

00:27:12 Neil Thomson (QueryVision): section 230 the Companies Act 2016
00:27:28 Drummond Reed: Reacted to "section 230 the Comp..." with 👍
00:32:28 Neil Thomson (QueryVision): It's like Bitcoin - its not the technology that's problematic it's the people using/running the technology
00:47:29 Drummond Reed: Great! Now ToIP can take on the liability for providing a Small Language Model for legal agreements governing liability. We can get sued for the flaws in our model! 🤣
00:47:41 John Phillips (Sezoo): Reacted to "Great! Now ToIP can ..." with 🤣
00:47:59 John Phillips (Sezoo): I'm seeking to avoid it by knowing where it is
00:48:23 Drummond Reed: Replying to "Great! Now ToIP can ..."

I am being quite facetious. I actually think it’s a cool idea AND we can completely disclaim any liability in providing such tools.
00:49:28 Scott Perry (Digital Governance Institute): conformance-public/legal-agreements at main · c2pa-org/conformance-public
00:53:25 Neil Thomson (QueryVision): The (cyber) insurance industry is probably the best position to assess the digital aspects of Digital Trust, but the legal aspects unknown - would be interested to pull in someone from CyberInsurance
00:55:33 Neil Thomson (QueryVision): I have a couple of Canadian contacts with digital/legal skills. I'll float it by them.
00:58:04 Neil Thomson (QueryVision): Have to drop - break in August sounds reasonable...